Grit & the Middle School Years

Middle school is a special set of years where students, turning into young teens, face unique challenges. In this month's episode, we chat with Mr. Bryn Homuth, Middle School Director and Mrs. Angela Johnson, Middle & Upper School Art Teacher as well as Liberty's Mental Health Consultant (as a Licensed Therapist). We dive into the importance of having grit and perseverance in middle school as well as how parents and teachers can support their children in forming those characteristics. 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:12

Welcome to Lions in the Library, a podcast by Liberty Classical Academy. Tune in each month to hear the transformative stories that occur on our campuses and to be part of timely conversations in classical education.

Speaker 2 0:24

So you want to introduce yourselves, just your name and then what position you are.

Speaker 3 0:28

Yeah. Sure. I'm Bryn Homuth. I'm the middle school director this year, and I also teach logic for the eighth graders.

Speaker 0:36

So nice. And I'm Angela Johnson. I'm the middle upper school art teacher, head of the art department, and I kind of also work mental health consulting for the school. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Speaker 2 0:50

Perfect. Well, we're good to have you guys.

Speaker 0:52

Thank you.

Speaker 2 0:53

We're going to be talking about middle school. Middle school years, having perseverance, having grit, all those lovely things. So let's kind of start out just talking about what is what does that even mean? What is grit? What is perseverance? What does that look like? I'll let you go because I'm a little bit.

Speaker 3 1:09

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 1:10

You'll work out the definition.

Speaker 3 1:12

So when I think about grit, um I thought about sharpening something. I thought about the grit of sandpaper and the grit of a whetstone. I mean, these are things I've been working with lately just because of my interests. But when someone, when I when a human being has grit, it's the quality that when when something comes up against you, are you going to affect it or is it going to affect you? Um, you know, when you rub sandpaper against something, it wears it away slowly. Or when you take a blade against a whetstone, you sharpen it, like a little bit of that material comes off. And so I was thinking about that with respect to people, and it's, you know, what impact do you have on your environment? Does it change you or do you shape it? And so I think that's a really it's a really great inroads to start thinking about that idea. Um is being unaffected or more having an effect of your own.

Speaker 2:14

So and I I look at it as getting through the tough stuff. And how are you able to handle life's challenges? How are you able to get through the storms that life has to offer? And so when I think about grit and perseverance, it's there's there's an old, I think it's an old Indian legend about the buffalo. And when there's a storm, do you do the the do you go through the storm? Do you sit there and wait for the storm to pass over you? And the buffalo, they kind of hunker down and let the storm pass over them because it's faster than trying to outrun the storm or um, and so there was always like be like the buffalo, like bear down, it's gonna pass over faster than you trying to outrun it. So um that's kind of what I think about when I think about grit and perseverance to great definitions.

Speaker 2 3:09

So I'd say when we look at our society at large, right? Would you agree that the youth middle school age is maybe lacking some grit perseverance? Why do you think we've gotten to that point?

Speaker 3:23

I I think that it's um society. I think I think as society as a whole, we're so comfortable. We've forgotten what's hard and we've forgotten what is difficult. Um places in more developing countries, they have to do they have to survive every single day. Life is just naturally harder. And so kids are maybe tougher, maybe of an inability to handle more of life's challenges. Um, whereas here, White Bear, Minnesota, life is generally easy. We've got three square meals, we've got a roof over our head. Um school is a right and a privilege, but kids still go. It's not they're not having to fight to be able to go to school. Um, and so there really isn't anything that is common in the day-to-day as often that kids are having to fight to survive for.

Speaker 2 4:29

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

Speaker 3 4:31

And I think their expectations are set that way as well. So expectation setting, you know, when you enter into a new something or a new stage, you know, in this case middle school, what do you expect generally? What do you think that you're gonna see when you come into that space? And the students of you know, our culture and our immediate vicinity and our you know, Western world, if you will, they're not they're not expecting those kinds of challenges. And I think, you know, some some some other people, you know, in the developing world and things like that, they each new day, it's probably gonna have something that they need to overcome. Yeah, and they they they have that in their minds at the outset. And I think that that sort of mental preparation is a huge part of it. Um, what do I think that I'm gonna see? Am I prepared for the worst but hoping for the best? And I think that in in our modern culture of comfort and ease, you know, where we're looking for those things, I I was thinking about instant gratification.

Speaker 2 5:36

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 5:37

I mean, um, even with technology, which I know we plan to talk about a little bit later, like the the advent of technology is a way to make life easier, a way to make things more efficient, a way to make things better in that sense. Well, the question really becomes what is really better for us? Is it ease at all costs? And I think that, well, certainly not always. Yeah, not always.

Speaker 2 6:04

So good points. Um, Angela, last year you spoke at our Education and Society event in the winter, and you talked about this thing that I wanted to bring up. It was just a really cool um study. It was called the Biosphere 2 Project. Can you talk a little bit about what that was?

Speaker 6:22

Yeah, what that was was there were these researchers that were trying to create this almost like perfect universe where everything would be um how how to be self-sustainable in this environment. And so they created this dome and planted trees and all these different um natural elements, and everything there was obviously natural sunlight that came through this dome. Um, but as things grew, they well, they did grow, but as they grew, what happened was the trees, um, when they got to their fullest potential fell over. And what the researchers found out was because there was what was called stress winds. So when winds come, or stress, stress wood, I'm sorry, stress wood. So when winds come, the trees start to grow what's called the stress wood, which makes it stronger and more durable. And then when the strong winds and storms come, the strees are able to bend and move with the wind, but they don't crumble and fall as easily. Um, so that's kind of related to when I talked about that in education society. We're talking about just natural human development, even is when people are growing up in this perfect bubble, this perfect environment where there's no stress, no difficulty as they grow. The normal pressures of this world that you would face an adult are really hard to manage. And I would see that in my practice, even is sometimes people were coming in adults that couldn't handle normal life, just the word we use, you know, adulting. Yeah. I just I can't adult. It's like you you gotta just you gotta toughen up a little bit to do the normal things that people have to do. And um, and so yeah, that that's kind of related a lot of the big topic stuff going on now about how do we um help our children develop this stress wood so that as they grow and they have really difficult things in life that there's so many things in life that happen that you have absolutely no control over. And can you handle it? Can you are you strong enough to be able to handle those things?

Speaker 2 8:48

This kind of goes into my next question too, is just so how does you know things being hard and failing at things? How is that helpful to our students and our kids?

Speaker 8:59

The the way it's being able to fail is an opportunity for growth. Yeah, if and I mean I tell this to my own kids, you can't you are not expected to be perfect at everything every single time because then you have no room for improvement. And if you have areas of weakness or if you fail at something, then that means okay, what do you need to do to improve? And people who ace everything or everything is easy all the time don't learn how to work hard and don't learn how to endure things. Um, I I joke with my parents and was like, when I was in school, I worked for every single grade that I thought. I was not a straight Ace student, but and I went to a small private Christian school for um when I was in elementary, especially, but it's like of those kids I was really close with. I was like, I was out of a class of 23. I'm one of the few who actually went on and got my master's and higher degree because I learned how to work hard in school. Yeah, and same with my parents, they they told me um they both have their doctorates, and they're like, we are not the smartest people, and every single thing we've earned, we have worked extremely hard for. We were not good at math, we weren't good at science, and we both have our doctorates. That's what hard work does.

Speaker 3 10:31

Yeah, and I think part of that hard work is by another name, perhaps learning to enjoy the process versus the product.

Speaker 4 10:39

Yes.

Speaker 3 10:40

Um, I talk about this a lot with my children, and even in thinking about my own interests, you know, if I if the things that I enjoy doing as an adult that I like to pursue, if the finish line was in sight and I would I were to be done with them, so to speak, it would suck so much of the joy out of the rest of my life that goes before me. Um those students that ace everything, they begin to develop, I think, this product-based sense about life. Like it's all about the end result or the end achievement. And there is some element of hard work being able to control for that. But also with those storm winds and stress wood, if you don't enjoy the road towards something as much as the destination, I think it's really one of the secrets of life. Like it is it is going to let you down when ultimately whatever you thought that destination would look like, that good grade, that job, that degree. I mean, think of a doctorate. Yeah, you know, when it finally gets conferred to you, I've heard jokes like it's you and your committee in the room together, like three other people plus you, and you're defending this book you've worked on for years and years. Why do people do that? You know, and it's just like they enjoy the learning, they enjoy going through it, and you know, failing teaches children that you're on a you're on a road, you're in a you're in a process. You know, I think of I'm a musician, I'm an athlete, I'm a writer, you know, I play something on my instrument, I always know that there's a better rendition of that that I'm chasing. I write something, there's always a draft that's going to be a little more polished somewhere out there that I'm always reaching towards. And so without failure, betterment isn't possible. It's like that light-dark distinction. We wouldn't know how bright the light is if it wasn't countered by dark.

Speaker 2 12:42

Yeah, I think that's true. So, what are some common obstacles you see middle school students have? Whether it's you know, your own children, students here, just students in general, being teachers and leaders in middle school years.

Speaker 3 12:55

Can I mention one right on the script? So because I was talking about processes and products and grades, I think grades are elevated to a level. I mean, they tell part of the story, they communicate something to both the student, the parent, and even to the teacher, you know, determining how they're earned. Yeah. But students with they develop a fixation on that grade, that number, and they think that it's the end all be all. And when that happens, all of the other things that are going on start to fade and even like fall off in terms of what students are experiencing. The the real love of learning, the joy that they're experiencing, the satisfaction of just taking in new knowledge, trying new things, achieving achievement is relegated to just this one specific realm. One of my favorite things to do with kids sometimes is to break down how a grade is actually produced. Like they they tend to develop this view of a grade as a universal, like absolute truth. Different human beings are, I mean, we try to account for this at an educational institution, but different human beings are assessing your work, they're seeing different things in it, they're at a different stage themselves, whether they're tired that day or full of energy or whatever there. So there's so much more that goes into that than students realize. And I think when they can when they can see it for what it is, it's freeing. But it is one of the things that it's a it's a it's a cross to bear for the middle school student.

Speaker 14:37

Okay. Yeah, and I I think I I do see that there I the graded the grades is something that is really hard for students, um, because there is comparison. Sure. Um, and I I see middle school from a relational standpoint. Middle school, I always like to say middle school is just hard. It's like it's just hard. Like your body's changing, your relationships are changing, schools changed because it's now. I mean, we're in a new, especially the classical school, you're in the logic phase, you're thinking differently. Um, and kids don't realize it's it's like, how do I get through? You have to get through this stage. You have to get through. There's nothing that's going to make these years really easier, but you need these years to build that self-efficacy so that when you're in high school and an adult, you have confidence in who you are. And this is the time that you're really developing. What am I good at? Who am I? Who did God make me to be? And that's where when you get 18 and you graduate, eventually, you know, this is who I am, this is what I'm heading towards, this is what I'm working towards, because you've gone through that storm of discovery, which is really middle school and I'd say even early high school.

Speaker 3 16:08

Yeah. And with kind of to circle back to our other point about instant gratification, the long view of life is kind of diminishing more and more as I see it. You know, if these are a period of years that are necess, like a necessary evil, if you will, um in our development, we're not we're not interested, or students are less and less interested in, okay, in three years, I will have the things I need to go forward with that confidence or with that strength. They want it now. And if it's not there now, there's like a there's like a fundamental disconnect because they don't see a lot of modeled examples, I don't think, of that sort of, I've been patient, I waited, I forged through, and I found deep satisfaction, a deeper and richer kind on the other side than I could ever find here. I mean, once they taste it, it's like there, we've got it. Like you, you know now. But getting them to take get that, find that first taste, it is just a bear sometimes.

Speaker 17:12

And that really takes a lot of families circling around their children and reminding them, yes, and just validating the experience, even of yep, this is hard. Like the buff, like we're in the storm. This is this is not fun. And but I've been through these storms. I'm an older buffalo, I've been through the storm, I know how long this takes. We'll get through this, and I'm here to support you, I'm here to be with you because I know what this is like, and yeah, this, but instead, uh parents love their children so much, they want to rescue them because they're remembering their own pain, they're remembering how hard middle school was for them. And so, well, I want to protect them from that instead of being, yep, I was there, I remember those mean girls, and let me help you through this, it's but how to get through it rather than rescue them necessarily.

Speaker 3 18:07

And the best rescue is really like the fullest and and most complete rescue is equipping you not to get lost in the future. You know, it's like it's like I can respond um reactively to the things that are going on, or I can take this proactive, you know, long arc view and say, I want to give you the things, and yes, it hurts to watch them suffer so hard. Um, but then you have to be ready to, I think this is the other side of the coin, to pounce with praise. Yes. Like when when when that suffering has been had and that flower starts to bud, or you know, whatever metaphor we want to use, you have to take their heads, their eyes, and and point them at it and go, look at that. Yeah, you waited for that.

Speaker 18:55

And here it comes. Perspective is huge. Yes. Once you gain, I mean, that's half of a therapy session is trying to gain new perspective, and so trying to help people and students look how you were failing at your math, and we've been working so hard, you've been tutoring, and now you've got Ubby. Like, I am so proud of how hard you've been working on this, and your endurance is so incredible. So coming alongside them that way.

Speaker 3 19:28

Parent and a teacher needs to find ways to celebrate mini successes. You know, we again back to this like process and product as a culture, it's like, what is that thing at the end of the rainbow? And students, if they if that seems to get further and further off or no closer, it can be really discouraging. And so to say, you've put in this work and you've gone from here to here, even if you want to get there, but you're going, you're moving.

Speaker 2 19:58

So I think going off of I think you mentioned a little bit of this already, and I'm skip a couple questions, but um, so how do we balance letting kids fail right and figure out things for themselves while also wanting to still protect their innocence, protect their spirit as a child, how do we balance that?

Speaker 20:19

That's a really good question. I think every child and every family is different. You there's no universal um formula. There's some kids, it's I mean, we even talked about that with the continuum of grades. Um if a child is at, you know, a certain point and then letting them grit and grind, and you know where they're at, you know that okay, they can grit and grind a little bit more, I can push a little bit more, um, and they won't crush under the very own weight of that. Whereas another child is maybe more tender and um maybe needs a little bit more guidance and more protection, but not so much that you've completely protected them from any difficulty. You you every kid, like I said, every kid is different. Um, I'm stumbling over that one, but no, that's great.

Speaker 3 21:17

We have to be knowers of people. Yes, like we have to. I I wrote that in my notes for this question. And I completely agree. We have to find ways to tap into the individual rather than do too much broad brushing because this is not a formulaeic thing, how much to push and how much to you know to um to protect. But I love the stress wood analogy once again here, because something I often say and was told by a mentor years ago is a bend not break mentality. And so is this a bend or is it reaching for a break? And then to ask yourself what those words really mean in the context of your. Child. I used to be part of meetings and things like that in educational spheres where someone would say, you know, this book at this reading level, um, they're not ready for that yet. And everyone would sort of nod and go, yep, yep, that sounds good. And I was always like, uh, how do we quantify readiness? Like, what are we really talking about here? Do you mean that the themes are too mature such that they will like have the like like what we could go many different tributaries along that line of thinking, but what does readiness really mean? And what are we protecting from? If this is true harm, irreversible harm, or like you know, trauma, you might say, like things that we don't recover from break kind of things, then certainly like we don't put our children 100% in that line of fire. But we have to be able to pause and objectively like step outside our own circumstances and go, okay, is am I am I reacting with emotion because I love my child so much as we all do? Or is this exactly what they need? Or do I just need to like let them try some stuff out? If it's not like a life or death thing and they're not they're not in that break sort of area, give them some suggestions for for things that they can do. They go do it, they come back, mom, dad, it didn't work. Well, walk me through exactly what did you do? They tell you you didn't actually do the thing, or okay, you tried this thing, let's go to the next one. And I just I think we as parents inadvertently feed the instant gratification, the immediate desire for reconciliation or whatever it is that we're going through when we jump. And if we stay calm, it shows them oh, what I'm going through didn't faze my mom and dad. They do love me, but they didn't get up in arms. And that sends a subtle message over and over again, too.

Speaker 24:09

And I heard um, I heard this recently. It's and I think it's really actually relevant to kids and different developmental stages. And um, it was meet them where they're at, take them further than they've gone before, and then take them to where they never thought they would go. And I think that is first of all, extremely relevant to classical education. You think of the three stages we've got our grammar, that is meeting them 100% where they're at developmentally. We do that with our kids, our their baby, our babies. We meet them where they're at developmentally. As they grow, and this is the middle school years, it's you know, take them where they've never, you know, take them where they've never been before. Now we're gonna start to push a little bit because they can. We're not gonna push them so they break, but we're gonna, we're gonna push them a little bit. And then as they get older and developmentally cognitively ready, now we're gonna take them to where they've never been because now we know they can handle it. Yeah. And they can think critically, they can think for themselves. And um, and that's where, but but a child who's, you know, maybe hasn't had developmental needs met all the time, they're probably not further along. Or maybe things have happened in their life that are harder, they still need to be met where they're at because they're not ready to go further. And so um, I think that's another way of thinking, where are they at? What can they go further in? What do I need to still meet them where they're at? Because they're not quite ready to go further.

Speaker 3 25:42

Yeah, and what are the signs exactly the signposts that I can look for? And I think about this a lot as a trainer of teachers because for some of us, keener on the human condition and who like to get to know people are more relational. How do we how do we develop a framework for training other people in our profession to start to look for these things when they're not so naturally inclined? Like that fascinates me too.

Speaker 2 26:08

So very nice. Um, can you guys think back to your own middle school years? Please no. I gotta go back and turn a little bit, but what can you come to mind that you persevered through that you would use as an example with students? That hey, I was in middle school too, and I persevered, here I am today.

Speaker 3 26:30

So I'd love to talk about like sort of what I think is uh something that I stumbled into, but now as an advocate for classical education and one who wants to bring that to students, I was I was a child who was widely interested in things. So I had musical endeavors, I had I was a good athlete, I also enjoyed some other things, and then academics too, of course, were important, but that put me in a place where I didn't fit into one of these predetermined camps or call them cliques, if you will. Okay. So I was I was a strange one foot in, one foot out participant in most things because, and that continued through college. I would be with my tennis you know team practicing for a meet and say, Oh, I've got a band concert, and they would look at me like I spoke a different language. But persevering through and holding on to those loves and those passions of mine has made me exactly the kind of man that I would that I hope for all the young men, which is one who, and I'm not trying to boast or anything like that, I feel more blessed by this, more grateful for it, um, who don't say no to opportunity, who are unabashed about singing. You know, I tell my I tell the boys in middle school, real men sing, you guys, yeah, even though they look at me quizzically. And I tell them, you know, real men are artists, but they are lumberjacks and builders. They are so much more than you can possibly understand that God created them to be. And I want you to go to the buffet of life, if you will, and sample. And so, like, I am so thankful that I continued in those endeavors and didn't sort of set my identity as many middle schoolers want to, and say, I'm not a blank person. Or I give that up because other people in my peer circle, you know, pressured me or influenced me not to, or all of my best friends stopped doing an activity, so I stopped doing it too. Um there's there was still a beating heart, and I still kept going. And and I'm just I'm eternally grateful.

Speaker 28:50

So what about you in the oh man? Oh, middle school and high school. Um it was it was hard just relationally. Um I have so many memories of just the you can't sit with us, you can't come to this, or whisperings behind my back, or um school not being easy. Um, so kids getting better grades, mine weren't good enough, being I was not an athlete. I was I was a dancer and that was more of my thing, but I couldn't run fast. So just you know, they're like kind of like friends, just there wasn't really a camp for me to fit in. Um and so I I remember even just struggling with some mental health stuff when I was in high school and feeling really alone. And I have vivid memories of just praying for a really good friend, like one really good friend. That person probably didn't come till I was you know in my 20s, but and she knows who she is, but um I it it really I think it taught me a lot about people and taught me how to love people and understand people and probably like why I am so sympathetic to people now. And my dad always told me um when I was going through difficult relations like hurt people hurt people, and so you don't know what they're going through and why they're acting that way. So show kindness and love, and I really do see that still coming across.

Speaker 2 30:41

Yeah, now you're both more resilient people because of it, you know.

Speaker 3 30:46

Yeah, I look back, I look back on that time. One of my favorite lines from my favorite novel, Moby Dick, talks about you know, the whale under the sea and how the whale is insulated from the cold by its blubber, right? And that it lives in the sea, but isn't well, it isn't of the sea. Like in this sense, you know, that you can it it is it's living in the cold, but not of the cold, because it retains like a warmth in the interior, a still beating heart. And I think that's kind of what Angela and kind of what I'm talking about as well, is um, especially as like I said, as Christians, you learn to walk your walk, um, not necessarily bumped off course by the world pressing in around you. Um you're in it, but not of it. Um and middle school taught me that as well.

Speaker 31:43

And I think too, something that probably same for you and the same for me is when you learn those hardships, you learn to develop more confidence in your own self and who you are because you realize these people aren't gonna accept me for me anyway. So I'm just gonna like, you know what? Who cares what they I don't care anymore what they think, right? And then when you have that confidence of I don't care, people actually see that strength of oh wow, this person's actually really confident in their weirdness or in their unique quirkiness because um that actually becomes a huge strength. And I really hope I really I tell this to my kids and just be weird and keep being weird because that makes you interesting. And people who aren't weird and don't have their funky interests are so boring and don't be like that.

Speaker 3 32:46

Yep, I tell my middle schoolers it's the greatest badge of honor they could pin to my chest. Mr. Hometh, you're so weird. Yeah, I'll stop and go, thank you. That is so great of you to say they're like, you know, they didn't expect that response. I understand.

Speaker 33:06

No, because at that age you're just you're trying to find your place in the world and you want to fit in so bad, and they're gonna bump along and they're gonna try to figure out what is my place, where do I belong? And where you belong is with Christ. That's it. Like hard stop, there is no other belonging, and you are never gonna get acceptance from the world, and the only place you can find acceptance in is Christ.

Speaker 1 33:33

Yeah, hard stop.

Speaker 2 33:36

Right, that's all you even know. One thing from this platform is all you even know.

Speaker 4 33:40

That's right.

Speaker 2 33:41

Um going back a little bit to technology, we talked briefly about it. So I think we can all agree that yes, technology heads, I think decreased are just grit and perseverance, right? By making things easy, even the dishwasher, even you know, there's just too many things now we can just push a button. Um, and so Liberty being a classical school, we're intentionally, you know, low-tech. I always try to explain it to people when they ask, like we're not anti-technology, we're just very pro-intentionality with how we use it and use it in a low-tech way. How do you see that impact our students positively by not having things just so easy, not being able to just have a bunch of iPads in a kindergarten classroom, you know, which you see in public schools? It's a real thing. How do you see that benefit our students?

Speaker 3 34:30

Yeah, I mean, I think about the simple task or seemingly simple task of writing something out by hand instead of typing it. And, you know, it grieves the middle school student. Do I have to write this whole word? Can I abbreviate this? You know, sometimes insensitively I'll say, Oh, are you developing, you know, carpal tunnel or something? Like, and certainly people have that, like, right? But but I'm looking with a twinkle in my eye at this middle schooler, and what I'm praying for them, what I'm hoping is they don't just complete the assignment for its own sake, but they find the satisfaction therein. They they watch their hand move across the page, they watch beautiful letters from their own hand go onto the page and they feel a connection between their humanity and what they're doing that technology has has displaced from us, has removed from us. Um, that's just one among many, but I'm a writer, so that's what I think of first.

Speaker 35:30

Well, I think I think there's a few things. You know, the low-tech, it creates an opportunity for still having to work out relational difficulties. Like the kids still have to face each other, they're still talking to each other, they're still, yeah, they fight. There's, you know, they may be nice, night, not nice, or but they have to, they can't just they're not just behind a screen all day long not even communicating, they're actually learning the skills of problem solving and um conflict resolution. But then a school like Liberty that's classical, I love the handwritten stuff, you know, keep it up, but even you know, I'm the art teacher here, and there is no when you just type in something like chat GPT, give me this, make this, there is no, again, coming back to that self-efficacy, self-efficacy, that delight and look what I've created. And so when students, I mean art, I tell them like this is artwork, it's not art easy because it takes so much time to make a project. And when things take time, kids, oh, I don't want to do this, it's gonna take too long. And but when they get to that end result, the glow in their eye. I mean, I have this luxury of seeing this glow of oh my gosh, that's really that's turned out really good. Look at what this looks like Ms. Johnson, and yeah, look what you did. You are you like, are you proud? You should be proud of this. And when you have to work at something and put in the time, not just push the easy button or have a computer spit something out, you can find that glow of look what I did, and that builds confidence that it will take you through my goodness, forever.

Speaker 3 37:22

And when it's been tactile, when it's been sensory, yeah, sensory when it's existed at you know, at more levels than just the visual sort of absorption that happens through a screen. Yeah, you remember it more, it's closer to you, you know. I I think of like there's lots of different analogies we could come up with, but you could go to the store and buy a loaf of bread. You know, you can do that because of industrialization and food systems and things that are extraordinary. Like, don't get me wrong, and we teach students that they are, but I also want students at the same time to punch and need some dough and to feel the ache in their hands and then to smell it baking in their own kitchen.

Speaker 2 38:02

You know, that is the difference between some making sourdough, so I know it's hard another episode.

Speaker 1 38:12

Okay, talk about it. I understand.

Speaker 3 38:15

Yeah, but even so, there's just um there's there's not a loss of humanity, there's a restoration of it in the in the things that we try to do here.

Speaker 2 38:26

Yeah, I like that. Perfect. Well, kind of going into our last question. Let's start with. Have either of you read the book The Anxious Generation? Yes. Okay. And not me. That is okay. One other two.

Speaker 4 38:39

50.

Speaker 2 38:43

Um, but he you know, he talks about overstimulation that that kids face in our digital world and people needing to be anti-fragile, and you know, having parents and teachers really teach grit and perseverance. So out of everything you said today, what is something that you either want to add or just like re-emphasize in teaching our kids and students perseverance and grit that you would want to kind of lead our audience with?

Speaker 39:11

I think I think the message to parents and teachers is reminding students and even themselves that like you can do hard things, you can do something. Yes, this might be hard. This might be hard for you as a parent to watch your kids struggle. Um, it might be hard to watch this person going through something difficult, it might be hard to watch your students keep bumping along and on this whatever it is they're working on. But I am here to support you, I'm here to come alongside you so that you can get through this and you can do something that is hard. And you know, here's the therapist had if you have your own stuff that you need to deal with, be it parent, teacher, whatever, adult, that's preventing you from allowing people that that is too makes it too hard for you to be able to be supportive, then do the work that needs to be done so that you're not projecting your own stuff on your kids or um your students or whatever it is. Um but I I know that you know my family went through a difficult experience when my husband was going through cancer treatment, and it was okay, I have to be strong for my kids. I have to show them strength and stability. And we would sit there and be like, okay, what's hard today? Yep, this is really hard. And yep, this makes me sad too. And we're gonna be okay, we're gonna get through this. And my kids could see daddy suffering and they could see daddy sick, but they could also see their daddy strong and emotionally getting through something hard. And they could see their mom stepping up and doing what needed to be done, and then they could see themselves a reminder like this. This is so hard. My life, you know, whatever it is. That this that's this is really harder than daddy going through cancer. Really? No, it's not. You're right. So you got through that, you can get through this. Speech me, whatever perspective, right? Perspective. Like, really, this is the hardest thing. This is harder than when you found out daddy had cancer. No, all right, it's not. Okay, you can do this thing. That's a good point.

Speaker 3 41:31

Yeah, I would say um to the middle school student, you know, to the parents, shepherding, discipling them, to the teachers, um, those students are stronger than they know. They are stronger than they know, and with with and in the Lord, they are supernaturally so. And um I would like to see a generation, and you know, starting here at Liberty, of Christians, especially. Certainly, we want to raise them up that way first, but Christians who are tough, yeah, Christians who look out at the world and don't, you know, insulate themselves from what they see from the realities of sin and fallenness, but instead say, you know, I heard this phrase once, you you can't make it too hard for me to quit. Like a little bit of that, a little bit of that snarl, that kind of that kind of edge that is godly. Yeah. To say, no, you're not gonna take me down. Um, I can, you know, I can get through this, and I know that I can, with a little, just a little bit of that, you know, that gumption. Because, you know, like if we're modelers and imitators of Christ, you know, he was and is the Lamb of God, but he's also the Lion of Judah. You know, and a lion over its pride and over I mean, it's a great liberty lions, right? A lion over its over its food and and protecting its its pride, it it it bears its teeth, you know, and it says, I'm not just gonna lay down and die, yeah, or lay down and give up. Yeah, I'm gonna go out the only way I know how. And I would love to instill that in a godly way. I mean, I'm not pretending to say that I know exactly what it looks like, but that's the idea. Um, that's the idea in my heart for these kids.

Speaker 43:36

But even to the technology piece, that's where if technology, you know, technology has its greatness. Like I am all for dishwashers and watching machines. Like I'm here for it. But if it gets to this place where we don't need people, where we don't need human people to come alongside us and remind us of the Perspectives of life, older generations, grandparents, aunties, uncles, you know, wise teachers who've been through this before. I mean, the teacher knows where they're supposed to get to at the end of the semester, they know the end result and they know where they're taking them, they know the end journey. And so it's it's I'm here to come alongside you because I'm gonna take you somewhere you've never been before, but I've been there, I know what it looks like, and you got this, like, and I'm here to support you. And that's what I like as Brenda saying as a Christian community. Can we do this? Can we come alongside our students as they're growing, as they're developing? I've seen the other side, I've been there. Yeah, it's hard, like that storm was not fun, but I'm here, I'm gonna support you. I love you. We got this, and you are stronger than you think you are.

Speaker 2 44:56

Yeah, I love it. Guys are so wise.

Speaker 3 45:01

This grit and this perseverance aren't at odds with compassion either. Love for your neighbor and other things like that. I wanted to kind of add that in on the tail end of my comments because it can seem like developing grit and perseverance makes you, you know, almost like true grit. You know, you become you become sort of an old crusty and you're kind of like a curmudgeon in the whole world, sort of, you know, not that kind, not to misunderstand, but the kind that harmonizes with all of the other godly characteristics that we want to see in our kids.

Speaker 45:41

Yep, and compassion and love. Yes, compassionate grit, compassionate, loving. Yep, it's the Lord discipline those he loves. And you know, I I said this in my um education and society talk that discipline is to teach, to learn. The skipulli, we teach Latin, you know, the the the to the learner, and we're learning. We're not here to get beaten, we're here to learn. Yeah.

Speaker 2 46:13

Well, thank you guys so much for being on having us so insightful and everything. Thank you guys again.

Speaker 3 46:21

Yeah, our pleasure.